Ironically, I'm currently learning Dutch. I am a native English speaker but did Afrikaans in high school, a language with Dutch and German origins. The pros: vocabulary, language rules and sentence structure are easier to understand for Dutch. The cons: I almost have to unlearn Afrikaans rules to accomadate for the Dutch versions. The hardest part is the accent and pronounciation for Dutch because the 'muscle memory' is Afrikaans coded so I have to pay extra attention to the pronounciation of 'r-' and 'ee-' etc.. I am now navigating the mental gymnastics of translating a thought from English to Afrikaans to Dutch and find it both helpful and deeply annoying how my proficiency in Afrikaans is affecting my proficiancy in Dutch.
Hi Rayna, I've heard that Afrikaans is like Dutch from a few hundred years ago. What are some of the differences you've noticed? Veel succes met het leren! Knap dat je het doet!
Bedankt! In my opinion, Dutch is much easier and straight-forward translation wise. Afrikaans requires formula-like thinking when speaking in different tenses that has you adding prefixs and kicking your verbs to the end of your sentence while obeying a multitude of invisible rules. Another fun comparison is where the letter 'Y' is practically non-existent in Dutch, in Afrikaans it's everywhere with 'Z' being the non-existent letter.
I have somehow managed to train my brain to use my native German for work and daily life, and English for fun and fiction writing, with the effect that I have a hard time writing stories in German now. 🙈 Oh, and my grammar is a solid denglish mix of both, thank god for things like Grammarly. 🤣
I stumbled on your piece and I enjoyed reading about your experience in the Netherlands. Navigating multiple languages is my bread and butter, working as a content manager dealing with 5+ languages. And living in a multilingual community.
The inside of my head is a mumbo jumbo of expressions and accents from various languages. I *think* I think in English now, but it depends on the day.
And conversely, living in a country where you don't have a noticeable foreign accent, but have no clue about the customs and social mores of living there, is also a fascinating experience.
I experienced that when I returned to study in the USA at age 28, after leaving the states when I was 9 years old and had never returned to visit nor live there. It was a "reverse culture shock" experience. My native language is English with an unmistakeable American accent; however, I grew up in Europe (Germany, Greece, France) & speak multiple European languages.
My fellow American students thought I was really weird... I ended up hanging out with other Europeans. It was both interesting to witness & rather unsettling to experience at first, until I began to understand what was happening.
Wow, what an interesting experience, Lorraine! Also difficult and challenging, I'm sure. I only go back to my home country to visit, and I feel like a foreigner. But when you move back, the reverse culture shock is powerful, I can imagine. What an interesting life journey you've had so far! 🤩
As a kid growing up in England, I was an accent chameleon. I could speak in the local Pompey (Portsmouth) accent, switch to RP ( Received Pronunciation, the "Queen's English"), Manchester (University), or Yorkshire (parents and uni friends). When I lived in Holland, I managed to hide my British accent under a regional Brabants accent well enough to fool most of the Dutch most of the time.
But after 35 years in the US, I have a resolutely transatlantic accent. Part of the reason is Iikely that there's no incentive to losing it. Americans hear a British accent, which is an asset, while Brits hear an American accent, which is a curiosity.
Alas I no longer speak Dutch without an accent. Last visit I was answered in English every time but one, and that one was a native Spanish speaker!
I have some competence in French, German, and Spanish, and would love Substack recommendations in those as well as Dutch!
Thanks for sharing, Monica. And your article is very interesting. Accent bias is definitely visible here: people from the south of the country are often looked down or perceived as less intelligent because of their accent
I commented there on how different languages, dialects and posts impacted my own language and accents.
During my first year in Norway, I remember lying in bed at night trying to remember a new word or two. Listening to them in my head trying to remember the voice I’d heard the word from. From there, I graduated to whispering the words and then quietly saying them out loud, trying to imitate the voice I’d heard speak the word. Then I would nod off to sleep.
It didn’t always work. I remember needing stamps and thinking many Norwegian words are just like English but when they pluralize them, they add er instead of s.
I marched into a post office and said “Jeg vil ha stamper, takk.” The postal clerk was perplexed but contained herself from laughing out loud. After my third attempt, she asked me in English, “Do you need stamps?”
In the way out I kicked myself when I saw the multilingual sign saying that they sold stamps. The Norwegian word was “frimerker”.... I wasn’t even close! 😂😂
“Dutch has articles “de” and “het”, but the general rules are so opaque as to be impossible to decipher. Dutch once had gendered grammar like German, but gender has disappeared from the language, though the articles remain.”
I am a native Flemish speaker and I only learned about this last week haha. I had no idea because it always came naturally to me. There’s a trick, though. Use the Antwerp-style diminutive “ke” at the end of the word, so you can always use “het.”
Ja, wij gebruiken "tje" in het nederlands, "het vrouwtje zette het vorkje op het tafeltje" maar als je zo praat, dan klink je een beetje raar of alsof je tegen een kind spreekt!
It would be hard! I’m illiterate. Well, I can read. I speak fluently since it’s my mother tongue, but I never learned to write. I had to write that explanation based on how I thought it was spelled and then get ChatGPT to correct it. It would have been easier to leave a voice memo, haha.
I lived in Holland for six years and at the Ime was pretty fluent. I would sometimes think and even dream in Dutch. I would occasionally use a Dutch idiom in English. My German got pretty good at the time, good enough for a business meeting or phone call. I can still read it, but if I try to speak, it comes out as Dutch! French has been there since high school, never fluent. Since moving to the US 35 years ago (I'm actually a Brit), I've learned Spanish. Speaking is rusty, but I love to read it.
What are some good Dutch, German, French, and Spanish Substacks?
When I began studying foreign languages I had the strange idea that I would learn how to replicate exactly what I would say into the other language, but of course that was very naive of me...
A language is no algebra. I discovered flexibility. I found out that the word we employ to translate may not mean exactly the same. And that we may even arrive to develop some sort of relationship with one specific language (for example English for me is more international than linked to a specific culture).
Only in Spain I experienced something in line with your story, having lived there for 11 years. I couldn't keep Italian and Spanish at the same level. Though I would have loved to, it turned out impossible. So I started to lose some parts of my native language, and the most embarassing situations happened with my mother on the phone. She (not I) realized that I was Spanish-izing some similar words... she laughed, but I suffered 😟
Delirious to discover this particular newsletter. Over the summer, in preparation for a visit to the island of Procida, I read Elsa Morante's masterpiece, Arturo's Island (L'Isola di Arturo). Walking around the island visiting her haunts, filtering her descriptions of the prison, the olive groves, the particular house where Arturo lives was one of the most magical experiences of my life. I'm haunted by it still.
She has been sporadically translated into English. Her first book apparently just came out in translation; I haven't read it yet. She really blows me away. If you read Arturo's Island, please post about it!
This article is so interesting to read, and reminds me of all the years of me straddling between two or more languages at any given time. I was born in China, so my mother tongue is supposed to be the dialect of my birth province. But it receded to the background as my family moved to Hong Kong and I learned the local language Cantonese once I started to go to school. But English was the official language then under British colonial rule. So I picked up both while speaking Mandarin in the primary school my parents sent me to (Mandarin was my father's language). So at home we regularly mix three languages (or dialects) with some English spinkled in. Later on when I lived in Sweden I started speaking "Swenglish." I've chosen English as my language of choice and work as an editor but I feel that my English is never 100% because of the "dilution" or influences of other languages in my head. And then my native Chinese has also been diluted over the years. At one point in my life my French was better than the other languages I knew but without regular usage it has become rusty.
Really liked this! I spent 2-1/2 years in Panama, in a part of the country where English is uncommon. Before going there, I had taken two semesters of Spanish at my local community college, so my Spanish language skills were, well, "poor" would be a kind way of putting it. Interestingly, though, after being there for a few weeks I found my writing had improved, I was choosing more interesting words, and it had a flow and a cadence it hadn't had before.
By the time we left Panama, I spoke Spanish at about the level of a slow two-year-old, but hearing it all around me had a big impact.
As an expat teenager in Brazil, my friends and I did this all time - mix in Portuguese words and phrases with English - within sentences - according to no particular rules that I can remember. We just did. I grew up around southerners so I still say things sometimes that puzzle my northeastern friends, like "She favors her mother" instead of "She looks just like her mother." And I will never stop saying 'git' for 'get.' I can't even hear the difference.
How do regionalisms or other languages affect how you speak and think in your native or adopted tongue?
Ironically, I'm currently learning Dutch. I am a native English speaker but did Afrikaans in high school, a language with Dutch and German origins. The pros: vocabulary, language rules and sentence structure are easier to understand for Dutch. The cons: I almost have to unlearn Afrikaans rules to accomadate for the Dutch versions. The hardest part is the accent and pronounciation for Dutch because the 'muscle memory' is Afrikaans coded so I have to pay extra attention to the pronounciation of 'r-' and 'ee-' etc.. I am now navigating the mental gymnastics of translating a thought from English to Afrikaans to Dutch and find it both helpful and deeply annoying how my proficiency in Afrikaans is affecting my proficiancy in Dutch.
Hi Rayna, I've heard that Afrikaans is like Dutch from a few hundred years ago. What are some of the differences you've noticed? Veel succes met het leren! Knap dat je het doet!
Bedankt! In my opinion, Dutch is much easier and straight-forward translation wise. Afrikaans requires formula-like thinking when speaking in different tenses that has you adding prefixs and kicking your verbs to the end of your sentence while obeying a multitude of invisible rules. Another fun comparison is where the letter 'Y' is practically non-existent in Dutch, in Afrikaans it's everywhere with 'Z' being the non-existent letter.
I have somehow managed to train my brain to use my native German for work and daily life, and English for fun and fiction writing, with the effect that I have a hard time writing stories in German now. 🙈 Oh, and my grammar is a solid denglish mix of both, thank god for things like Grammarly. 🤣
I also notice myself switching word order around because of Dutch. It can come across as almost Shakespearean (or so I tell myself)!
As long as you don‘t start sounding like Yoda... 😉
I stumbled on your piece and I enjoyed reading about your experience in the Netherlands. Navigating multiple languages is my bread and butter, working as a content manager dealing with 5+ languages. And living in a multilingual community.
The inside of my head is a mumbo jumbo of expressions and accents from various languages. I *think* I think in English now, but it depends on the day.
Funny coincidence I just published an article about speaking with an accent and how that influences all parts of our lives. If you're interested, here it is: https://monicanastase.substack.com/p/speaking-with-a-foreign-accent
And conversely, living in a country where you don't have a noticeable foreign accent, but have no clue about the customs and social mores of living there, is also a fascinating experience.
I experienced that when I returned to study in the USA at age 28, after leaving the states when I was 9 years old and had never returned to visit nor live there. It was a "reverse culture shock" experience. My native language is English with an unmistakeable American accent; however, I grew up in Europe (Germany, Greece, France) & speak multiple European languages.
My fellow American students thought I was really weird... I ended up hanging out with other Europeans. It was both interesting to witness & rather unsettling to experience at first, until I began to understand what was happening.
Wow, what an interesting experience, Lorraine! Also difficult and challenging, I'm sure. I only go back to my home country to visit, and I feel like a foreigner. But when you move back, the reverse culture shock is powerful, I can imagine. What an interesting life journey you've had so far! 🤩
Thanks, I feel so fortunate!
As a kid growing up in England, I was an accent chameleon. I could speak in the local Pompey (Portsmouth) accent, switch to RP ( Received Pronunciation, the "Queen's English"), Manchester (University), or Yorkshire (parents and uni friends). When I lived in Holland, I managed to hide my British accent under a regional Brabants accent well enough to fool most of the Dutch most of the time.
But after 35 years in the US, I have a resolutely transatlantic accent. Part of the reason is Iikely that there's no incentive to losing it. Americans hear a British accent, which is an asset, while Brits hear an American accent, which is a curiosity.
Alas I no longer speak Dutch without an accent. Last visit I was answered in English every time but one, and that one was a native Spanish speaker!
I have some competence in French, German, and Spanish, and would love Substack recommendations in those as well as Dutch!
Impressive skills, John! ;-)
Thank you Monica!
Thanks for sharing, Monica. And your article is very interesting. Accent bias is definitely visible here: people from the south of the country are often looked down or perceived as less intelligent because of their accent
Thanks, Lloyd! Yes, there is quite some discrimination of southern accents in several countries, Italy, Spain, the US and so many more, I'm sure.
Loved this post, Lloyd. I found it just after reading Monica Nastase’s post: https://monicanastase.substack.com/p/speaking-with-a-foreign-accent
I commented there on how different languages, dialects and posts impacted my own language and accents.
During my first year in Norway, I remember lying in bed at night trying to remember a new word or two. Listening to them in my head trying to remember the voice I’d heard the word from. From there, I graduated to whispering the words and then quietly saying them out loud, trying to imitate the voice I’d heard speak the word. Then I would nod off to sleep.
It didn’t always work. I remember needing stamps and thinking many Norwegian words are just like English but when they pluralize them, they add er instead of s.
I marched into a post office and said “Jeg vil ha stamper, takk.” The postal clerk was perplexed but contained herself from laughing out loud. After my third attempt, she asked me in English, “Do you need stamps?”
In the way out I kicked myself when I saw the multilingual sign saying that they sold stamps. The Norwegian word was “frimerker”.... I wasn’t even close! 😂😂
Thanks, Paul and thanks for sharing! the only way to learn is through making embarrassing mistakes!
Thank you, Lloyd. That is so true. There are always new mistakes to be made, too... fortunately, the embarrassment subsides with time.
The story about the stamps was included in a post I wrote back in April called "Sink or Swim or Fake It Till You Make It?".
Here's the link if you're interested.
https://alwayscare.substack.com/p/sink-or-swim-or-fake-it-till-you
“Dutch has articles “de” and “het”, but the general rules are so opaque as to be impossible to decipher. Dutch once had gendered grammar like German, but gender has disappeared from the language, though the articles remain.”
I am a native Flemish speaker and I only learned about this last week haha. I had no idea because it always came naturally to me. There’s a trick, though. Use the Antwerp-style diminutive “ke” at the end of the word, so you can always use “het.”
"Het vrouwke zette het vorkske op het tafelke."
Ja, wij gebruiken "tje" in het nederlands, "het vrouwtje zette het vorkje op het tafeltje" maar als je zo praat, dan klink je een beetje raar of alsof je tegen een kind spreekt!
Ik woonde zes jaar in Den Bosch. Het Brabants ligt ergens tussen het Vlaams en het Nederlands. Wij gebruikten 'tje' en 'ke' allerbij.
Je moet meer in het vlaams schrijven!
It would be hard! I’m illiterate. Well, I can read. I speak fluently since it’s my mother tongue, but I never learned to write. I had to write that explanation based on how I thought it was spelled and then get ChatGPT to correct it. It would have been easier to leave a voice memo, haha.
Love this!
I lived in Holland for six years and at the Ime was pretty fluent. I would sometimes think and even dream in Dutch. I would occasionally use a Dutch idiom in English. My German got pretty good at the time, good enough for a business meeting or phone call. I can still read it, but if I try to speak, it comes out as Dutch! French has been there since high school, never fluent. Since moving to the US 35 years ago (I'm actually a Brit), I've learned Spanish. Speaking is rusty, but I love to read it.
What are some good Dutch, German, French, and Spanish Substacks?
When I began studying foreign languages I had the strange idea that I would learn how to replicate exactly what I would say into the other language, but of course that was very naive of me...
A language is no algebra. I discovered flexibility. I found out that the word we employ to translate may not mean exactly the same. And that we may even arrive to develop some sort of relationship with one specific language (for example English for me is more international than linked to a specific culture).
Only in Spain I experienced something in line with your story, having lived there for 11 years. I couldn't keep Italian and Spanish at the same level. Though I would have loved to, it turned out impossible. So I started to lose some parts of my native language, and the most embarassing situations happened with my mother on the phone. She (not I) realized that I was Spanish-izing some similar words... she laughed, but I suffered 😟
Delirious to discover this particular newsletter. Over the summer, in preparation for a visit to the island of Procida, I read Elsa Morante's masterpiece, Arturo's Island (L'Isola di Arturo). Walking around the island visiting her haunts, filtering her descriptions of the prison, the olive groves, the particular house where Arturo lives was one of the most magical experiences of my life. I'm haunted by it still.
Thanks, Amy! I will check out Morante, I hadn't read her before. Sounds wonderful!
She has been sporadically translated into English. Her first book apparently just came out in translation; I haven't read it yet. She really blows me away. If you read Arturo's Island, please post about it!
This article is so interesting to read, and reminds me of all the years of me straddling between two or more languages at any given time. I was born in China, so my mother tongue is supposed to be the dialect of my birth province. But it receded to the background as my family moved to Hong Kong and I learned the local language Cantonese once I started to go to school. But English was the official language then under British colonial rule. So I picked up both while speaking Mandarin in the primary school my parents sent me to (Mandarin was my father's language). So at home we regularly mix three languages (or dialects) with some English spinkled in. Later on when I lived in Sweden I started speaking "Swenglish." I've chosen English as my language of choice and work as an editor but I feel that my English is never 100% because of the "dilution" or influences of other languages in my head. And then my native Chinese has also been diluted over the years. At one point in my life my French was better than the other languages I knew but without regular usage it has become rusty.
Thanks for sharing, Louisa! And what a wealth of languages you have.
Really liked this! I spent 2-1/2 years in Panama, in a part of the country where English is uncommon. Before going there, I had taken two semesters of Spanish at my local community college, so my Spanish language skills were, well, "poor" would be a kind way of putting it. Interestingly, though, after being there for a few weeks I found my writing had improved, I was choosing more interesting words, and it had a flow and a cadence it hadn't had before.
By the time we left Panama, I spoke Spanish at about the level of a slow two-year-old, but hearing it all around me had a big impact.
It's always the trial by fire that pushes us to go from theory to practice!
As an expat teenager in Brazil, my friends and I did this all time - mix in Portuguese words and phrases with English - within sentences - according to no particular rules that I can remember. We just did. I grew up around southerners so I still say things sometimes that puzzle my northeastern friends, like "She favors her mother" instead of "She looks just like her mother." And I will never stop saying 'git' for 'get.' I can't even hear the difference.